Chaos & Creativity

Hey, Kimmy, how you doing?

I’m good.

How are you, Lou?

I’m fabulous, and I’m doing a little work for free, which made me think about the fair trade concept that we were kind of talking about a little bit last week.

Oh, yeah.

Okay, so you’re, okay, you’re giving it away for free.

Giving it away for free.

What are you doing?

Well, it’s different now, I think, than when I was younger, because I’m taking a calculated risk, and I think that’s a big part of—we have a lot to talk about today, actually.

Yeah, we’re gonna get into the weeds.

We’re gonna get into it.

So, but so our topic is fair trade, and it is about when to work for free, when not to work for free, why you should work for free, and when you’re getting taken advantage of and what you should do about it.

It’s kind of heavy, really.

Ooh.

Let’s talk about something fun instead.

Let’s talk about sloths.

Sloth?

What the hell’s sloth?

You know sloths, like those animals that are so cute and they move so slow.

They’re like—they move—you know what a sloth is, Lou.

Oh, oh, I thought it was like some sort of zeitgeist or some sort of trend or something that I was missing.

If you don’t know what a sloth is, our next episode is just gonna be me talking about how you don’t know what a sloth is.

About you channeling your spirit animal, which is a sloth.

Yeah, like hello, the best, the greatest.

Okay, anyways, we digress.

What we’re really talking about is fair trade and not like what you see on your coffee or on your chocolate, but actually, like, working for free, working for trade, like what, you know, what your time—the value of your time, because I think as artists especially, this is something that gets hugely undervalued and given away for free all the time.

Well, I think people have trouble figuring out where the boundaries are.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

I think that’s where—yeah, yeah.

So I think that’s kind of a big part of it.

Yeah.

But let me talk about my current situation.

I was asked to read a screenplay.

And, you know, that takes time, and it’s not something I’m directly involved in.

It was just sort of like, let me take a peek at this thing.

So I read it, and it’s always tough because it needs— it was given to me with the anticipation of, hey, we’ve got this thing and it’s done.

And from my perspective, being older and more experienced, it’s not done.

And so I have to have that conversation.

But one of the things that I found within the screenplay was that the premise is spectacular.

The execution around the premise was a little weak.

And so I have to have that talk.

But the other thing is that within the premise, I found a really, really good story.

And so what I’m going to do is approach the writers and say, look, I’ve got this idea.

I think it’s a little bit better than the direction that you went.

I would be willing to write a treatment for you and for, you know, partial writing credit, and you guys can fill it out and write it out and see how we go.

And it’s a delicate balance because I don’t want to take anything away from them.

And also I want them to understand that I’m not also trying to take the project away from them, but I’m really passionate about the premise.

So I think that is, that’s a fair trade for me.

Okay, yeah, that’s cool.

Well, hilariously, a current situation of mine that almost happened.

Yeah, tell me.

We talked about this last week because I talked to so many people about this.

But anyways, I like randomly got cast in a short film.

Did we talk about this?

Oh, you kind of mentioned it, but tell me more.

I randomly got cast in a short film, and, like, I’m not an actress.

I don’t really want to be an actress.

Like, acting to me seems like a lot of work.

And, um, and, but, you know, my studio mate is a director and was doing assistant direction work, and she cast me in this thing.

And I, of course, without even thinking, I was like, oh yeah, totally.

I could totally be in your short film, not asking, like, how long is it going to shoot for?

Is there payment?

Like…

What is the script?

You know, I mean, I did get the script and the idea, so I knew that, but I was like, I really didn’t get any more information.

I just was like, Oh yeah, my God, totally sure.

And then an hour later, just like very big regrets set in, because I was like, this week is already so intense that they’re shooting for me.

It’s unpaid, so I’m doing this for my reel, which is hilarious because I don’t need it for my reel because I don’t ever want to be an actress.

So, like, all the reasons everyone else is doing it is, you know, legit.

They’re like, We’re doing it for the art, and I’m like, which I’m like, cool, but it’s not my art form.

Like, if I was doing the music for this, that would have been a different story.

But I’m like, I’m literally investing into something.

And, you know, at the end, I was kind of like, okay, well, I’ll just do it for the experience.

But then luckily it got canceled, and I was like, Did I manifest this?

Because I really was like, Oh my God, why did I say yes?

I just spent an entire day just like, Oh my God.

Oh no.

Yeah, you know, one of those things.

But it made me really be like, hey, I am no longer like 22 years old.

I don’t need to say yes to everything.

I don’t need to have experience.

I don’t need to get experience in things that have nothing to do with my life or the art forms that I want to follow.

Absolutely.

And it’s really interesting because I think I come from a generation where you just say yes to everything.

Yep, sure.

Oh, Kimmy, you and I are different generations, and we are pathologically yes people.

We are.

We love pleasing the people.

We do love pleasing the people, and it probably speaks to our insecurities or the French we got going on, but— Our parents didn’t love us enough.

Or maybe they loved us too much.

I mean, who knows?

I mean, I’ve given up on trying to figure where that comes from, but this is why we have a producer and why we have representation, because they are the ones that can say no for us.

But it is funny how people will corner us and, Okay, sure.

Okay, sure.

So I think, you know, one of the things you need to think about is that you need to— can you take the project on?

And I think when you’re younger— And you’re hungry for experience.

Sure, you could take it on.

You could try it out, see how it goes.

But when you’re older and more experienced, as you and I are, and we both have multiple projects going on and our days are packed, the answer has to be no, unless it’s something really, really extraordinary.

Extraordinary, exactly.

Yeah, and I think that’s, like, great advice.

Like, when do you take on a project for free?

When do you, like, even looking—I mean, what you said, I think sometimes people send me stuff, like music to listen to or whatever, and if it’s like, you know, my best friend, sure.

But if it’s just somebody I kind of know, it takes time to, like, really listen to something and give proper feedback, just like it takes time to read a script.

It takes time to give feedback.

And I think, you know, when—I think people kind of sometimes forget that.

And so I’ve had to try to really, like, just manage expectations when people send me, like, an album where I’m like, when, you know, being like, I don’t know if I have time to listen to this right now, but, you know, when do I get back to you or something like that.

But it is interesting because I feel like I’m just starting to learn how to say no or how to, you know, kind of stand up for my own time.

Yeah, absolutely right.

Well, one of the things that happens to me often is people are like, Can you photograph this headshot from your—photograph this thing for me?

And I can shoot a headshot.

You know, we’ve shot together before.

I can shoot a headshot really, really quickly because I’ve done a million of them.

Yeah.

And people think that, Oh, it’s 15 minutes out of my day, but it’s like, no, there’s so much that has to go into it after a shot.

Like, there’s now you have 500 photos that you have to edit, and then you have to bring it down to, and then you have to get input on it, and then you have to do the post-production on it.

And that’s the part that kills me.

I don’t have time for that anymore, and that’s why I’m always a no on photography stuff.

But when people look at you sort of incredulously and they’re kind of like, Why?

Why can’t you do this?

It’s like so quick.

It’s so quick and easy for you.

And I think that’s what people don’t seem to understand.

It’s like there’s a lot more that goes into it.

The reason it looks easy is because we’re good at it, but it also looks easy because there’s a lot that goes in behind the scenes.

Yeah.

One hundred percent.

When do you, like, how do you decide that you will look or do some work for someone?

Like, how do you decide, okay, I am going to, like, shoot something for this person or read their script?

Like, what is it, like, that kind of brings you to that point?

I think it’s, if it’s a close friend that, like, if you were to come to me with a project, I’m a yes, 100%.

Like, you and I, but you know what goes into it.

So if it’s somebody who’s from our industry and they say, Look, can you take a look at this thing?

They already understand what the ask is.

They understand what they’re asking me.

And so it’s like, okay, they wouldn’t have asked unless they really believed in what they were doing.

So I’m going to be 100% yes from somebody who’s close to me and who’s also from our industry and understands what goes into having whatever the ask is.

People who are outside of the industry, I’m almost always a no now because they don’t understand what it takes to read a script or give notes on it or, you know, I mean, it’s four or five hours.

I mean, it’s, you know, keeps me on trying to get it done.

And there’s always the, you know, Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, I gave you the wrong copy.

Do this one, you know, that sort of thing.

How many times has that happened to you?

Sounds like something I would do, to be honest.

Yeah, well, fair point.

So that’s kind of where I’m at now.

But my 20-year-old self, it would have been much more, Is this interesting?

Is this something I can learn from?

What am I going to gain personally from it?

Because I’m not going to gain anything financially from it.

And I’m not going to gain potentially reputation.

You know, if whatever the project is blows up, then you’re a part of it.

That’s good.

But I don’t think you should ever try to predict that.

There’s no way to predict what’s going to hit and what’s not going to hit.

So you need to find the altruism in…

Saying yes, and it’s like, okay, I’m going to learn something.

I believe in this person.

I’m going to date this person, maybe.

I mean, who knows?

And, or this is going to help me in the future.

Do you know, do you remember, like, the people that you were around in your twenties and everybody’s sort of making music at the same time?

Yeah.

And you knew the people that, like, if I help them, I know they’ll get me when I need help.

One hundred percent.

And I think that that to this day, like, there is, I will still do things.

I love doing things for trade, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

People don’t have money.

I love doing trades because I really believe in trade as, like, a form of payment.

Right.

But it’s really important to protect yourself in that too, you know, because if you’re just doing, like, a handshake thing where you’re talking over dinner, I think it’s really important to get that stuff in writing also, even if it’s just an email.

Yeah, yeah, I think you’re absolutely right.

I think just like, hey, listen, this sounds great.

I’m going to send you an email about what we talked about and what the expectations are.

And it doesn’t have to be formal or legalese.

It just has to be like, hey, this—an example of an email I would send to you.

It’s like, hey, Kimmy, we were at drinks the other day.

We talked about me writing or directing a music video for you, and I’m just going to deliver the video, and then you’re going to have it posted and edited by somebody else.

Yeah.

Oh, great.

Okay, perfect.

And so the expectations are sort of written down in a note or in a text message or something like that, and so that way we can go back to it and look and say, oh, that’s right, that is what we talked about.

And it only takes you being, like, gaslit, like, three times by different people saying that they didn’t ever said that, you know?

You’re like, you 100 percent said that, you know?

It’s like, literally we talked about this.

It only takes, like, three times, and then you really—it’s a lesson that you just never ever— Or in my case, like, many more times than that.

Okay, so let’s talk about when it’s stupid to give it away for free.

So— When is stupid?

So something, I’m not sure this happens in your world so much, but when I was younger, up-and-coming celebrities or stars, you know, actors, were just starting to break, just starting to break, and they needed pictures for something, and this happened also with a director.

And it was, and this director went on to win an Oscar.

And it was, If you do this for me now, when I break larger, I will bring you with me.

That never, ever, ever happens.

Name and shame.

Who is it?

No, no, I can’t do it.

I can’t do it.

I can’t do it.

No, you’re going to tell me after?

I’m going to totally tell you after.

We go offline.

I’m about to find out, and then I’m going to post it on our Instagram stories.

No, just kidding.

Oh my gosh, that’d be horrible.

And I’m not angry about it because I’m the idiot who said yes.

Also, I think people think sometimes they’re going to have way more power when they get into power than they do, you know?

I think that’s part of it.

I also think that they got caught up in a machine that is so overwhelming that they— You raise a really good point, actually.

That’s a really good point, that once you get caught up in the machine and the PR people get involved, life moves really, really fast.

And it’s kind of like, Oh, I’ve got this friend who’s going to— No, no, no, no, no, no.

And then as you’re coming up, you’re not in a position to push back yet.

You’re not big enough of a star yet to push back.

Yeah.

The director who went on to win an Oscar, that was intentional.

He took advantage of me intentionally.

The celebrity, I would say, was she got caught up in a machine.

Yeah.

And she, you know, and then what are you going to do?

And then when you are big, it’s, you know, too much time has passed, et cetera.

So I think that’s, you know, it’s— that’s just why you have to really take care of yourself.

I will say the pictures of the director did nothing for me.

The pictures of the celebrity did a lot for me because as she went on to huge fame, she was in my portfolio.

So, you know, again, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a balance.

Although who wants to look at a picture of a director?

Literally nobody.

Well, okay.

I mean, just saying.

I’m like, have you seen directors?

Like, I’m sure that the actress photos were like, wow, beautiful.

And with the director, you’re like, well, I’m working with what I got.

Exactly, exactly, right.

No shame.

No shame.

No shame at all.

But, and then another situation that comes up often is if somebody solicits your opinion and says they’ll come in and say, Okay, I really need your opinion.

I think you’re an expert in this stuff, and they will really sweet talk you, and then they will ask you for money.

Oh yeah.

I mean, that happens so often, more often, like, Oh, that’s a great idea for a film.

I think I can get it produced, and if you can front the hundred thousand dollars to get this thing started, you know, we can get this thing going, and then all of a sudden the money disappears and you’re…

I mean, like the amount of emails that, that was like, that people are like, We love your music, and da da da da, and like, we think we can really, like, do something with it if you front up the money.

Yeah.

You’re like, Oh yeah, if I had five thousand dollars, I could do a lot too, let me tell you.

Right.

I could do a lot.

Exactly.

Oh, that’s a good one.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it’s, I think that, like, it’s very rare that you should be investing money in somebody else’s creative ideas if you’re creative.

No, if you’re gonna invest money, invest it in yourself.

Yeah, especially when you’re, like, young and don’t have a lot of money.

Exactly, right.

I mean, if you’re gonna put any money into anything, you should be putting it in—it’s your money.

You should be able to watch it.

You shouldn’t be giving it to somebody else to handle.

Yeah.

I think that there’s a lot of…

Misinterpretation of what that looks like in terms of the fact that, oh, I have this business manager now who’s going to take my money and help me with it.

Well, if they’re not a fiduciary, they’re not actually a business manager, and they’re just somebody who’s going to throw your money around.

But there’s something that feels good about that because it feels like you’ve made it, even though you haven’t made it yet.

And it’s weird.

This industry is so screwed up.

I mean, that’s across the board.

Like, I feel like for such a long time, I was like, I just want a manager.

I want a manager.

And then I had one manager who was my friend, and she was amazing, and she really fought for me, but she fought for me because she was my friend and, like, loved my music.

But, like, for the most part, the managers that I’ve seen are just kind of like guiding a ship that’s already sailing, you know?

Oh, that’s a good way to put it, yeah.

I think that they’re not the ones putting the speed into the ship.

The ship already has speed, and they’re just like, Oh, let’s help you guide this.

But I think there’s this—I think because we all grew up watching the same music documentaries, everyone’s like, I just need to get discovered by the manager that’s going to catapult me to fame.

And it’s like, I think that’s a really old concept.

I don’t think that happens very often anymore.

I think now everyone’s just waiting to see what hits, and then they’re like, Okay, I’m going to attach myself to this.

So I think in general, like, you know, I also see so many pay-to-play managers anyways, but I do think that’s an important thing to— Oh, pay-to-play is bad.

Yeah.

Anytime anyone is like, Yeah, I will be your manager, but you just have to pay me upfront, like, no.

A good manager is always going to work off of commission of what you’re already making.

But yeah, I really do think, like, don’t, you know, really don’t bring anyone onto your team until you cannot do it by yourself because— Absolutely right.

It’s interesting because I’m reading— An autobiography of Kim Thayil, who’s the guitarist for Soundgarden.

And when they got approached by a major label, they were kind of like, I don’t know if I want this, because they were managing their own money.

They were being smart about it.

They had a great community in Seattle, and they just didn’t jump on it.

And I’m reading that like, I don’t know if I could have done that.

Do you know what I mean?

To have that kind of discipline.

And I think it’s interesting because it’s like they ultimately did, but it was first a no for them.

Yeah, because they were fine with what they had.

Yeah, I think that’s so awesome.

Let’s talk about a couple of other different situations that I got myself into.

Okay.

There’s a—I shot some stills for a movie called Enemy of the State, and I went in to go collect my check and drop off film, and I gave the producer a contract that he had to sign before he paid me, outlining the usage rights of the pictures, saying, Oh, you can use it for X, Y, Z number of years, or, you know, basic usage rights type stuff.

And he blew up at me, and I just had the biggest lemonade ever because it was a hot day in Los Angeles and I was thirsty.

And as he was screaming at me about not having all the rights to do whatever he wanted to with my pictures in terms of advertising and everything else like that, because he was getting paid for a certain amount of promotion but not full-blown advertising, I was trying so hard not to pee my pants that I was just kind of focused on that.

And after five minutes of this yelling, he goes, Man, you’re a tough dude.

I’ll sign the paperwork and off you go, and here you go, because most people would cave at that.

Yeah, like I’m just trying to hold it in.

I’m just trying to hold it in, man.

Like, okay, whatever.

So, but that happens a lot.

You get yourself in a situation where expectations are not talked about beforehand or agreed upon beforehand about usage rights or copyright, and somebody yells at you and they try to intimidate you into giving you more than they should be getting for the money that you’re getting paid.

So that’s one thing.

Another job I was on, I just had a funny feeling about the job, and so I shot it.

It was for a golf clothing manufacturer, and I was able to get a check upfront for the advance, and then I got a check the day of the shoot for delivering the final hard drive with the photos.

And at the time, I’d just gotten into the Directors Guild for TV commercials, and this guy threatened to sue me unless I did color correction.

I said, Well, that wasn’t a part of the deal that we discussed.

And he said, Well, I’m going to sue you.

I said, On what grounds?

He goes, It says here color photos in your bid.

I said, That doesn’t mean color corrected photo.

He goes, Well, we’ll find out in the lawsuit or something like that.

And fortunately, because I was breaking into the entertainment space, I had a lawyer and the Directors Guild behind me, and the threat of that coming back to him, he disappeared.

But sometimes people do that too.

They’ll sue you or threaten to sue you.

And I found out that this guy had been doing this.

He had been going through photographers every season, threatening to sue them.

They would do all this work because they were scared to get sued, and that’s how he extracted more value from, you know, very little money.

That is definitely not fair trade.

That is unfair.

No, that’s illegal, actually.

Unfair.

Unfortunately, if somebody sues you, you have to answer the lawsuit, and that costs money too.

So, yeah, I think that’s why so many people get away with— Absolutely right.

So.

Interesting.

I’m trying to think of, like, what is a—I mean, I think I’ve worked for free for so much.

I think being a musician, especially in this day and age where everything’s streamable, it just feels like we’re working for free all the time anyways.

Right.

Unless we’re, like, selling merchandise.

And I was like, oh, I could make money if I was a clothing shop that just sold merchandise of my band.

Yeah.

So it’s an interesting thing because I do have to always remember, I’m like, what I do is worth something, and it’s important to, like, remember that, especially after years and years of just, like, putting—five where people can pay ten dollars a month to listen to it, and I get, like, five, you know, like 0.001 cent.

It’s an interesting thing, like, how to keep in your head, like, hey, the things I do are worth it.

But what’s interesting is actually the work that I do is, like, doing breath work and, like, working with frequencies and giving sound baths and stuff.

That’s where I’ve actually really, like, honed in on this because I do get a lot of requests for, like, private sessions, and sometimes I’ve done a lot of things for free.

I’ve done a lot of things that I think are important for free, or, you know, like I’ve donated my time for, like, raffles and things like that for important causes.

I’ve done a lot of donation, but that’s—I think that’s definitely much more.

But I also, like, have been, you know, I’ve also, like, been asked to do stuff where I’m like, okay, this is, like, a corporate-sponsored thing, and you’re trying to pay me, like, a hundred dollars to show up from across town with all my music gear, play, like, an hour-and-a-half sound bath, and then go back to, like, fifty people, and you want to pay me a hundred dollars.

Like, that is a no.

You know, I’m like, that’s, like, as much as I would make if I was just, like, playing at a studio or something.

But it’s interesting because I do—the thing is, there is a lot of people who will take that, you know, especially somebody starting out.

Like what we talked about, if you’re young and you’re like, hey, I’m starting out and I’m just—I need money, they’ll do that.

But I’m like, yeah, then go find that person because I do think, you know, I’m not—I don’t think, like— I’m not the kind of person that’s like, You’re devaluing our entire industry.

It’s like, no, these are the kind of gigs that are then fine for younger people to do, and they’ll see how unsustainable that is.

You know, like they’re not going to do that forever.

But we’re always going to have that.

You know, we’re always going to have this.

On the other end of that, you also have people who are, like, overcharging insane.

Yeah, like, no, who is— I find the people that are overcharging are kind of scam artists anyway.

I mean, you know, they’re just gross people.

So I think we should do a follow-up episode to this on how to find self-worth as a creative.

And there’s a therapist that I know that would be good to interview about this, and then you and I can do some bumpers around that, and— And then she’s going to, like, live therapize us.

Oh my God, no, no.

We’re going to tell her everything that we’ve just said, or we’re just going to have her listen to this episode, and then she’s just going to give us feedback on, like, what she thinks, which issue, which parent to blame.

I can’t see a more efficient way to disenfranchise our listenership, Kimmy, than to have them— I feel like they would think that was amazing.

If I was listening to a podcast and they’re like, Okay, we’re going to have a therapist weigh in on our most recent episode, and then the therapist is just like— We are legends in our own mind, Kimmy.

I think we should call it a day.

Yeah, you know, it is.

I mean, by me it’s 7:30, so it is like p.m., so it is almost the end of the day.

Let’s just call it the end of the episode.

Let’s call it the end of my day and the beginning of your day.

Good to see you, Kimmy.

Always good to see you, Lou.

Take care.

Bye.

Bye.

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Chaos and Creativity is produced by Jeremy Johnson.

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